Ten,
Nine,
Eight,
Seven,
Six,
Five,
Four,
Three,
Two,
One,
Do you know where we're going?
Can we start again?
Ask the question again,
From the beginning,
Well she,,, Leonora Carrington was a British artist,,,
who spent most of her life in Mexico,
One of the key surrealists,,,
And I happen to know her,,,
We met through our family doctor,,,
and we visit her most Sundays for tea,,,
we talk about life and art and cats,,,
She had two Siamese cats,
And because of that link,,
the Tate asked me to guest curate that exhibition,
Well what my impulse would be,,,
It's hard because this is a very strong centre of gravity over here,
I mean,,, her most iconic paintings are basically these three,,,
So Darvault is larger than La Giganta?
She did not accept the world that she was given as a woman,
She did not accept the world as it superficially appeared,
I guess I too have been drawn to the sense of an enchanted world,,,
Something beyond our everyday reality and,,,
I suppose even people who seem to offer something radically different,
This modern life, modern art, modern love,,,
I do not know,,,
it all feels a bit soulless to me,
I don't know,,, it makes me something of a romantic,
I was probably born in the wrong century,
But one has to just keep giving this century a chance,,,
see what happens,
- Hi, Chloe, how are you? - Hi,
Your hands, well,,,
At the LRB on Tuesdays,,,
- I did not know! - We're in dialogue,
- Right, - Yes,
- I'm talking about her book, - Great, very good, Invite me,
- Absolutely, come along, - I got a letter,
Hi, how are you? Nice to see you, Nice to see you,
Ah good, you smell nice,,,
I'm going to go and have a look at something,
It's the think on everyone's lips at the moment,
I know, it really is, It's weirdly fashionable,
I know, I know,,,
I did a series for the Guardian website about five years ago,
I'm a novelist,
- What? - A writer, a novelist,
OK,
and I helped create a show at the Tate Liverpool,,,
Say again,
I've been co-creating a show at Tate Liverpool,,,
OK, Right, OK,
Do you know Leonora Carrington?
Leonora Carrington?
I do not know her,
Not many people know her,
She's British but lived in Mexico for six decades,
So at Tate Liverpool they're having a,,,
It's a bit like Jackson Pollock isn't it?
I know, she wrote and was also a painter,
Her name was Leonora Carrington,
OK,
- Was she a painter or writer? - Both,
Since last summer we've been trying to get works from Mexico,
- They've arrived and they,,, - Sounds great, I'll go and check it out,
Thank you very much, Nice to meet you
Yes, Leonora's work brings a kind of re-enchantment of the world,
A world that seems a little too sure of itself,
Your inspiration came from something much more interior,
When she was 19 she met the German surrealist Max Ernst,
They embarked upon a passionate romance,
I think her relationships were complicated but in the end quite fulfilling,
And your relationships, are they quite fulfilled too?
FEMALE HUMAN ANIMAL
I think when someone asks you a question like that,,
I think it's kind of misplaced,
Though I think to a great degree we are manipulated,,,
by forces over which we have no control,
such as or death, our birth, our death, and our instincts,
Where are the men gone?
That's our problem,
Where have the men gone?
There are millions of them, but the one I'm looking for does not exist,
No he exists, No, Chloe, it does exist!
No,,,
I'm telling you, I know that guy exists,,,
and I know you want to meet him next week,
Juliet's book launch, you're going to be on stage,,,
introducing her, looking great,,,
Well that will be a disaster,
You know I hate public speaking and then,,,
after Juliet's book launch then the Tate wants me to,,,
give a big speech at the opening,
Well you're currently at a really good time now,,,
Where you'll be looking good, people will be looking at you,,,
We'll all be there, There'll be a,,,
Will there be a party?
I think Philippa is threatening to take me to a private event afterwards,
but that's more so she can find momentum,,,
Well that's perfect for you, men to molest,,,
and it will be full of artists,,,
men with hair,,
Chloe's style men,,,
Well I don't know, it might be fun,,,
It's good to have a distraction,,,
I'll go out for a distraction for an hour or two I guess,
It won't just be fun, you've got to keep an open mind Chloe,,,
It's going to be amazing,
Right or left,,,
Just avoid the sinister ones,,,
Well on top of curating this exhibition at the gallery last week,,,
I gave a big talk, well a speech at opening night,,,
I just,,, it's been driving me,,,
That mountain and I've been a bit stuck with the novel,,,
and it's put everything back,
But I,,, something in me wants to deliver this week,,,
How far are you along?
Quite far, quite far, But there's still a few things that I need,,,
It's just that we've got next year's list,,, already on us,
It will not take that long,,,
Just a bit more,,, I need a little more time,
Poor you, Look, I'll see if we can gain a bit of breathing room,,,
But,,, shall we go over it together? It really helps sometimes,
Maybe one evening,,, this week,,, I could pop around,
That's a nice offer but I think I just need more time,
Nonsense, I will not abandon you so easily,
You know, I really think you are so great Chloe,
We'll get you through this,
I think this is a really good sequence for this room,,,
- Yes, - A really good,,,
So the art kitchen alchemical laboratory wall,
Exactly,
I'm a little nervous about the opening speech I have to give,
Yes, but I do not like public speaking,
It would be better if you could,
I'll think about it,
OK,
A very warm welcome to the London Review bookstore, where tonight,,,
I'm delighted to introduce you to Juliet Jacques and Chloe Aridjis,,,
to talk about Juliet's new memoir Trans,
It's an important book, it feels like an important book and it feels like,,,
a book that she's going to continue to,,,
and it is a book that will continue to have its space,
In conversation with Juliet today is novelist Chloe Aridjis,,,
and Chloe it's lovely to have you here as well, Thank you very much,,,
I'm really happy to be here, let's start,,,
Sorry, would you like to say something?
Can everyone hear us OK?
My voice sometimes does not project very well, but I'll try,,,
Autobiography is the story of a life, and a memoir is a story from a life,
So I guess there are lots of ways I could write this memoir,,,
or a memoir,,,
She starts with people like Jan Morris and Lili Elbe,
these older transsexual memoirs,,,
and kind of drawing out a lot of things that have become cliches,,,
I mean, in terms of,,,
There's a process at work, where you basically have to,,,
incrementally keep upping the ante,,,
in terms of shocking people,
It's a type of art without a kind of narrative in it,,,
and actually kind of move back,,,
- How are you doing? - All right,
You look so glamorous,
I'm not the best public speaker,,,
but as long as I deliver great prompts,,,
How are you?
My life is an endless spiral of new levels of meta-sexuality,
Thanks, how are you?
- That would have been a nerve-racking,,, - Yes,
but what I liked was the way your friendship came out,,,
I just can't,,, I feel so stuck these days,,,
Ludwig?
I'm home,
Ludwig?
Darling I'm home,
Ludwig?
You scared me,
Where are you going? Come here! Come here!
Ludwig?
No darling, you shouldn't be down here,
No no no darling,
Go down here,
We always close the doors so you can't get out,
We do not want anything to happen to you, ever ever ever,
No,
No, my darling,
I think Leonora, throughout her life,
identified more with the animal spirit than with the human,
And the humans that he liked were the ones that were a bit feral,,
unleashed and freed of social expectation,
I think the underworld is still very much the underworld, at this height,
Cool, see you in a bit,
Hello?
Hey!
I was wondering,,,
sorry to interrupt you,,,
who that guy was,
Which guy?
The one who was here,
I didn't see anyone, I did, ahem,,,
The man who was here,
Maybe from that Berlin gallery they're installing downstairs, Could be,
The Berlin Gallery?
- OK, - OK,
Sorry to trouble you, I just,,, I wanted to ask,,,,
This,,, I've just been seeing someone,,,
Around the gallery there's this guy and I was wondering whether,,,
well, whether you had any idea who this person was,
Miss Chloe Aridjis?
Aridjis, yes,
Detective Inspector Morris, Scotland Yard,
I was wondering if you could spare a few moments,
We're looking for someone we need to speak to,
A man,
We've received reports of someone matching his description,,,
hanging around the gallery,
What sort of man?
Is he dangerous?
If it's the man we think,,,
he's been linked with the very violent and unsavoury elements in Europe,
He's 6 foot, athletic build, brown hair, mid 40s
Doesn't,,, doesn't sound familiar,
That's OK, it's just to,,, you know,,,
alert you and your colleagues,,,
to keep an eye out,
Of course, are we in danger? Or,,,
Well if you do encounter this man,
I strongly suggest you call me immediately,
Hello,
Papa?
Where have you been, Karinya?
Hi papa, I was out doing things,
I just stepped out for a bit,
How are you, daddy?
How are you,,, Precious?
Yes everything's fine,
Ludwig was a bit congested, but now he's fine,
He's better, everything's fine,
How are you both?
Papa?
When are you coming to see us, Karinya?
I,,, hope soon, I just, I have to finish my book,
The moment I finish my book, the moment I finish I'll come visit,
You said it would be finished by now,
Sorry I just,,, I was hoping to be, But it's taking much longer,
Is mama there?
She hasn't been very well lately,,,
She's resting now,
And,,,
And what are you doing tonight?
Well my friend Philippa invited me to a party,,,
so I was thinking of just going out for a bit,
Is that wise?
Maybe not, but I just,,, well no maybe not,
I should probably stay at home and work,
I hope, keeping warm,
Do you know it's going to rain there?
I don't think so daddy,
Yes, it's going to start raining at any moment there,
No, not around,,,
- Oh there's Chloe, - Hi!
Ah, my God!
- You made it, - Hi,
Oh you look gorgeous,
- Hi, How are you? - Alright,
- Good, - Very good,
Twice in one week, This is crazy!
- I mean, - Who cares about it? How are you?
Alright, Just,,,
- What's been going on? - Writing a bit,,,
OK, You seem distracted,,, Are you okay?
Yes, no, sorry, I just,,,
I,,, There's just a lot happening right now,
What the fuck are you doing?
Wait! Cozza!
Come on hit me,,, Harder!
Harder!
That was a bit shit,
Oh, come on!
I know, "Avant Guardian,"
Not even "avant-garde", just,,,
It's like it's red nose day or something,
Why do I have to dress up like this?
Hi,
This is kind of weird, right?
I was just wondering if you wanted to go for a drink,
OK, Maybe, OK,
Do you know the amazing pergola up on the Heath?
Saturday at six? I meet you there,
Maybe,
Maybe?
Maybe,
OK,
- Maybe, - Maybe?
Maybe?
Maybe,
I don't know that sounds like such a good idea,
I'm the one who followed him,
Yes, but you really don't know him from Adam,,,
He could literally be anyone,
I mean, do you know anything about him?
Well no, to be honest, No,
But I feel one has to explore things,
I wouldn't be going on a date with someone who could potentially be dangerous,
I do not know, I mean,,,
- Don't you think? - I don’t know,
Are you okay?
Yes it's just when you're pregnant,,,
every five minutes you've got to go and,,,
I feel like a walrus now,
That's beautiful,
I mean walruses are beautiful,
Thanks, yes, A girl of like a thousand pounds,,,
Ludwig?
Ludwig,
She was the sort of woman who never wanted to feel confined,,,
Come back,,, where you were,
Just turn a little bit like that,
I co-curated a show with Francesco,
Just ask the question again,
From the beginning, so,,,
that did formally feed into her paintings,
Look what's here!
Surprise!
Happy birthday!
It must have come off the carpet,
Chloe! Chloe!
What have you learned Chloe?
What have you learned?
I do not know, I do not know,,,
You're trying to intellectualise,,, desperately,
And you're wasting your time,
I have to go,
Actually I'm done,
For fuck's sake Chloe, you haven't given me,,,
So,,,
Chloe,
Animals!
I love animals!
Bye,
Please, take it,
Take her! Take it!
Yes that must have been a bridge,
Was it? There's no more bridge,
Do you have money or do you want to,,,
If I have money? I have plenty of money,
I'm super duper rich,
That looks like the mad woman of Borneo,
Like Borneo in the jungle?
Yes, Like a bad woman of Borneo,
I feel like the crazy woman from Borneo,
With my hair like this,
That would eat her husband?
- Yes exactly, - Cannibals,
It's beautiful,
A family friendship with Leonora Carrington,,,
and then also just felt a strong affinity with her work, and,,,
these sort of fantastical hybrid creatures,,,
just feeling she's very liberated from all expectation,
Yes,
I love art,
- I mean, I love it, - You do?
Yes, I love it,
I love it, I love,
- I love meat, - Meat?
- Yes, sex and art and,,, - In that order?
Meat, sex, art,
In that order,
Sex, meat, art,
Sex meets art, That's good,
OK!
Isn't it funny?
Well,,, It's new,,, I mean,,,
New drinks?
Yes,
So you,,, Are you,,,
German or Austrian or ,,,?
I'm just thinking your accent sounds familiar, But,,,
Yes,
I'm half German, half Austrian,
Yes,
Can I try your beer?
Is it nice?
Do you want to try my beer?
Just a sip, I don't have to,
I just,,, felt the urge,
That was a big sip,
Well,,,
I think I have to take off,
Go?
I have to go,
Sorry, I really have to go,
But we,,,
- Cheers, - Cheers,
Oh it's so good, I love the beer,
So did,,,
So what's your story? Where are you,,,
Do you know Jekyll and Hyde?
I love Jekyll and Hyde,
Yes it's a familiar,,, dichotomy,
Who is the bad guy? Jekyll or Hyde?
I think it's Jekyll,
That becomes Hyde, and in the end he can't become Jekyll more, only Hyde,
- Yes, - Yes
That's a shame,
Too much drugs, apparently,
No no shooting, I think it's more like this,
But they injected cocaine, no?
Yes, yes,
I had a friend dying of it so I stopped,
And,,,
So what's your story? You just appeared,
What here? I'm a traveller between times,
Well I shouldn't,,, I was just distracted from,,,
I was there just putting the final touches to the show, and suddenly,,,
- That's the way it is, - Wow!
I was always a big fan of Leonora Carrington,
- Really? - Yes
The company said you're doing the show,,,
The company said you are the curator of the show,
Co-curator, yes,
The co-curator, co-curator,
CC, The co-curator of the show,
I can't believe it, It's so good, Oh I've come off my chair,
Sorry, I should not laugh but,,,
you look,,, sincere, but,,,
That was not sincere,
No it was sincere, That's what made me laugh,
- No it was not sincere, - Well now maybe it wasn't sincere,
Now do you want something sincere?
Tell me something sincere,
I've got,,, very deep feelings for you,
Already?
What I want to say is that I,,,
really love you,
But we hardly know each other,
- I'm sorry, we'll see what happens, - No forget about it,
- No no, - It's OK, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,,,
We're not,,, I mean I,,,
It's good,
I didn't mean to interrupt,
Anyway,
- You were saying,,, - I'm just goofing,,,
I'm just the kind of guy,,,
who's saying that a man and a woman should be serious and,,,
honest,,, if it,,,
if it comes to that point that,,,
I can see you're not taking me seriously,
No, it's not that,,, it's that,,,
I'm just a little taken aback but I'm,,,
No no I'm continuing,,,
I thought you were a serious person,
I'd like,,, I am a serious person, I just,,,
You know, life teaches you expectation,,, love roles should be kept,,,
Sort of moderate, Time determines things, but,,, No but I,,,
I do not know,,,
but I'm a serious person,
Actually too serious a person,
All right,
It's good anyway, I mean,,,
No no, as we know,,,
That's enough, forget it,,, It's,,,
- I didn't mean to end it like that,,, - I didn't,,, Me neither,,,
Now,,, It's good, good,
I've just um,,,
I'm,,,
Like um, um,,,
Should we go to my room in the hotel?
Shall we get out of here?
- Yes? Should we go? - Just ah,,,
Where will we go?
I'll show you,
- Hi, - Hi,
Yes I'm sorry I just,,, Well I thought something had happened to Ludwig and,,,
I mean I thought something very dramatic had happened,
- What happened? - Is he OK?
Well no I just thought,,, Yes well he,,,
He just,,, I think,,, he went for a wander,
I think he just needed a change of scenery,
But everything's fine, everything's fine,
I'm glad you're alright,
Yes, I love this art,
How's your fantasy man, your mystery man?
Oh yes, how did that go?
- What happened? - I,,,
I ended up smashing his head in with a rock,
Love in a sort of romantic way,,,
I think it's very silly,
Believe me, I think it's really stupid,
You have to own your soul, as far as it's possible,,,
to own a soul,
Or let your soul own you,
Yes,
To hand it over to some half arsed male,,,
I wouldn't recommend it,
(Speaking in Spanish)
She was expelled for behavioural problems, for smoking,,,
She always identified with feral spirits and animals,,,
and I think there was something in her that just didn't ever want to be confined,
I think she's one of the greatest artists of the 20th century,,,
and just not very well known still, so I hope,,,
that this exhibition will finally put her on the map,
And it's not a question of whether she was female or not,
She had this very strong commitment to the idea of the animal familiar,
Female human animal,
Not necessarily in that order but,,,
I see it very much a statement of breaking free from,,,
patriarchal structures or systems, but also,,,
of identity being very fluid,
Influenced by her times but not determined by them,
Influenced by men in her life,,,
but certainly not determined by them,,,
and she always remained very much her own person,
We do not know much about the soul,,,
but I think we learn about the soul,,,
and we have to listen to the soul,,,
and to know when it's the soul,,,
and when it's something else,
Like, I do not know, something learned,,,
Hi, I brought you a book,
What is that?
It was very quick to pull that draft together,
Yes it just suddenly came, it all came together,
So how soon can we have proofs?
Oh well hang on,,,
Once I've had a read of it I'll need to give you my notes,
I'm really happy with it the way it is,
Well OK but generally I do like to give feedback,
I'm really happy with it the way it is, So,,,
Well,,, Chloe,
Why don't you take a seat?
We should toast this achievement,
Yes we'll definitely have a drink at the launch, and hang out,,,
I just,,, My show opens in two days so I have to go back to the speech,
I'll leave you with this,
I'll see you then,
OK well,,,
Right,
So thanks to them and thanks to all of you for coming this evening,
In Leonora's depictions of the inner life,,,
no landscape is ever fixed,
They're always in a state of transformation,
And although this indeterminacy can feel strange or even threatening,,,
we have to leave a space for it, we have to embrace the unknown,
Hello, nice to meet you,
Hi, it's beautiful, beautiful,
- I'm so glad, - It's really beautiful,
Did you really see it? You saw it upstairs?
I've just taken the ambassador into the room over there,,,
but I've lost Francesco,
You are,,,?
- Tilman and Masayo? - Yes,
Do you remember that I would see you at Leonora's house?
- Yes, yes, and you said to me,,, - With my parents,
Yes we've emailed,
How are you?
Nice to see you,
No no come up!
- Are you working together? - No,
- Yes! - Yes,
Yes whether she likes it or not, For sure,
It would be great if we can manage to do it,
And notice the shift to the sublime,